If Walker wins and THEN Herbert finds that Ellis' accusations have merit, then what? Do we vote for the Democratic candidate instead? Or do we just assume that Herbert won't find anything, either because nothing is there or because Herbert doesn't want to piss off the right wing of the party.
Walker is clearly the weaker candidate in terms of experience, knowledge, credibility, and ability. But Walker has "intangibles". He's buds with Curtis, for example, and he's a backslappin' good ol' boy.
If Ellis' accusations had merit, he would have leveled the charges when the incident allegedly occurred.
As it is, he waited months to mention it. He didn't even bring it up before the state delegates before convention. Instead, he launched a smear campaign weeks before the public primary.
It's hard to attach credibility to his story given the context.
You seem like a reasonable enough dude. If the accusations and corroborating witnesses are telling the truth, what should be done? Bad timing, yes, but how best to handle it? If he's guilty and lying about it, how does the party come out the least damaged?
Walker was visibly relieved Herbert didn't have to show his hand. Ellis wants Herbert to show his hand. Herbert and leadership and Shurtleff and others don't like Ellis. If they had info that showed the claims were made up or not verifiable, wouldn't they have held a press conference to expose Ellis as a liar? Their silence tells me the facts aren't on Walker's side. What do you think?
Either way, it's messy messy messy and a big black eye for the party.
You raise a good question. The reality is that such matters can't (and shouldn't) be investigated on the fly; that's why such accusations are potent political weapons.
Your question presumes that Herbert and Shurtleff would abuse their responsibilities to promote the candidate they prefer. I think they're operating in such a way (i.e., disciplined) that their investigatory thumbs aren't on the scale during a primary election.
This boils down to an Ellis backer (donor, I believe) saying that his candidate's opponent said something in private. That's tough to verify.
My calculus is that Ellis is scuzzy. I look at how he's conducted himself in the public arena over the years (plenty willing to distort and make up facts) and in this campaign (dishonestly), and I conclude that this is politics at its worst.
Then again, we tend to see things through our own paradigm. I back Walker and think he has an abundance of common sense and judgment, while I think Ellis seriously lacks both.
It’s clear you’re a Walker backer (donor?). I haven’t heard about Ellis distorting and making up facts. I’ve read about a few of the disagreements he’s had with Greg Hughes and company, but nothing that gave me too much heartburn (I actually like that Alter was independent and not afraid to give input that didn’t sit well with leadership when needed).
I am curious about why you think it isn’t necessary to have a person as treasurer who has a degree in finance or some sort of formal finance/numbers training, and whether experience is something to consider in this race. I believe it is important.
I get that you don’t like Ellis. And you mentioned that you think Walker has “common sense and judgment.” Is that enough for us to sleep at night, knowing he’s calling the shots on $10+ billion in investments? Are you making a lesser-of-two-evils endorsement because you don’t like Ellis, or how would you explain the backing Walker has from the legislature given his resume? Is it the argument that the office holder is mainly a figurehead? I am trying, and I think many others are too, to understand the enormous support Walker has from one small group, when his support seems more limited in other groups (like with city/county treasurers and finance folks who universally favor Ellis, for example).
Do you also believe the treasurer’s first priority should be to lobby for tax cuts?
It doesn't seem to add up. Can you help me with the math? I have always appreciated your willingness to dialogue on important issues, even when opinions diverge.
I would hope the people of this state agree that the Legislature takes the budget very seriously. The Legislature has worked extensively with both candidates. I believe that the reason a huge majority of us support Walker is that we think he'll run the office better. Candidly, we don't think much of Ellis's abilities or judgment. He told us that our tax cuts would cost us our AAA bond rating. He was wrong. He told us that spending caps would cost us our AAA bond rating. He was wrong. He told us that the State owned WCF. He was wrong. Bluntly, he's a hack.
By contrast, Mark has been involved in many meaty decisions where his judgment has proven solid.
If you've got to know both candidates, and you reach a different conclusion, that's fine. But, knowing both, I'm supporting Mark. I think so little of Ellis's abilities that, were he to win, I'd have to take a very serious look at the Democrat. I'd imagine that others who've been on the receiving end of Ellis's incorrect (and always politically motivated) counsel would have to consider doing the same.
Wow Steve, I am very surprised at this. I have always respected you, but I have also known Ellis for many years and believe that he is a man of integrity. From what I have observed, I'm not so sure about Walker. I think you're wrong on this one.
That's the beauty of the process. We're free to do our research and to reach different conclusions. What a great system (despite what the downer-of-the-day media would have us believe)!
In any event, be sure to go out and vote next Wednesday! (For the humor impaired; that's a joke).
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34 Comments:
sad on several levels.
If Walker wins and THEN Herbert finds that Ellis' accusations have merit, then what? Do we vote for the Democratic candidate instead? Or do we just assume that Herbert won't find anything, either because nothing is there or because Herbert doesn't want to piss off the right wing of the party.
Walker is clearly the weaker candidate in terms of experience, knowledge, credibility, and ability. But Walker has "intangibles". He's buds with Curtis, for example, and he's a backslappin' good ol' boy.
If Ellis' accusations had merit, he would have leveled the charges when the incident allegedly occurred.
As it is, he waited months to mention it. He didn't even bring it up before the state delegates before convention. Instead, he launched a smear campaign weeks before the public primary.
It's hard to attach credibility to his story given the context.
It sounds like the Republican primary is between a pot and a kettle...
Steve,
You seem like a reasonable enough dude. If the accusations and corroborating witnesses are telling the truth, what should be done? Bad timing, yes, but how best to handle it? If he's guilty and lying about it, how does the party come out the least damaged?
Walker was visibly relieved Herbert didn't have to show his hand. Ellis wants Herbert to show his hand. Herbert and leadership and Shurtleff and others don't like Ellis. If they had info that showed the claims were made up or not verifiable, wouldn't they have held a press conference to expose Ellis as a liar? Their silence tells me the facts aren't on Walker's side. What do you think?
Either way, it's messy messy messy and a big black eye for the party.
Anon.,
You raise a good question. The reality is that such matters can't (and shouldn't) be investigated on the fly; that's why such accusations are potent political weapons.
Your question presumes that Herbert and Shurtleff would abuse their responsibilities to promote the candidate they prefer. I think they're operating in such a way (i.e., disciplined) that their investigatory thumbs aren't on the scale during a primary election.
This boils down to an Ellis backer (donor, I believe) saying that his candidate's opponent said something in private. That's tough to verify.
My calculus is that Ellis is scuzzy. I look at how he's conducted himself in the public arena over the years (plenty willing to distort and make up facts) and in this campaign (dishonestly), and I conclude that this is politics at its worst.
Then again, we tend to see things through our own paradigm. I back Walker and think he has an abundance of common sense and judgment, while I think Ellis seriously lacks both.
Steve,
It’s clear you’re a Walker backer (donor?). I haven’t heard about Ellis distorting and making up facts. I’ve read about a few of the disagreements he’s had with Greg Hughes and company, but nothing that gave me too much heartburn (I actually like that Alter was independent and not afraid to give input that didn’t sit well with leadership when needed).
I am curious about why you think it isn’t necessary to have a person as treasurer who has a degree in finance or some sort of formal finance/numbers training, and whether experience is something to consider in this race. I believe it is important.
I get that you don’t like Ellis. And you mentioned that you think Walker has “common sense and judgment.” Is that enough for us to sleep at night, knowing he’s calling the shots on $10+ billion in investments? Are you making a lesser-of-two-evils endorsement because you don’t like Ellis, or how would you explain the backing Walker has from the legislature given his resume? Is it the argument that the office holder is mainly a figurehead? I am trying, and I think many others are too, to understand the enormous support Walker has from one small group, when his support seems more limited in other groups (like with city/county treasurers and finance folks who universally favor Ellis, for example).
Do you also believe the treasurer’s first priority should be to lobby for tax cuts?
It doesn't seem to add up. Can you help me with the math? I have always appreciated your willingness to dialogue on important issues, even when opinions diverge.
Anon.,
I would hope the people of this state agree that the Legislature takes the budget very seriously. The Legislature has worked extensively with both candidates. I believe that the reason a huge majority of us support Walker is that we think he'll run the office better. Candidly, we don't think much of Ellis's abilities or judgment. He told us that our tax cuts would cost us our AAA bond rating. He was wrong. He told us that spending caps would cost us our AAA bond rating. He was wrong. He told us that the State owned WCF. He was wrong. Bluntly, he's a hack.
By contrast, Mark has been involved in many meaty decisions where his judgment has proven solid.
If you've got to know both candidates, and you reach a different conclusion, that's fine. But, knowing both, I'm supporting Mark. I think so little of Ellis's abilities that, were he to win, I'd have to take a very serious look at the Democrat. I'd imagine that others who've been on the receiving end of Ellis's incorrect (and always politically motivated) counsel would have to consider doing the same.
Wow Steve,
I am very surprised at this. I have always respected you, but I have also known Ellis for many years and believe that he is a man of integrity. From what I have observed, I'm not so sure about Walker. I think you're wrong on this one.
Anon.,
That's the beauty of the process. We're free to do our research and to reach different conclusions. What a great system (despite what the downer-of-the-day media would have us believe)!
In any event, be sure to go out and vote next Wednesday! (For the humor impaired; that's a joke).
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Even it got me crazy enough to buy Guild Wars Prophecies with some my own GuildWars Gold and Nightfall and Eye of the North. It is expensive to buy gw gold all parts. If you lack the GuildWars money, but it is worth it and no monthly costs and the game gets updated weekly at least. Once again, if anyone wants to play Guild Wars sometime add me to friends here Guild Wars Gold. And realize how much cheap gw gold I bought in the last couple of weeks, months, years. So I found this Guild Wars Factions and installed it.
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