Vouchers -- Committee Hearing Tuesday
The voucher bill will have a hearing in the House Education Committee Tuesday at 3 p.m. (room 135). Audio will be available on the Legislature's website.
I've had several representatives tell me that they are following the dialogue here and on Politicopia. Two have told me that the dialogue determined their vote. So, keep the cards and letters coming in.
UPDATE (later): Thanks, Tyler. 3 p.m.
Also, assuming the bill does pass committee and that it advances to the floor, it likely will be put on the Time Certain calendar for Thursday at 10:30.
UPDATE (1/31/07): Make that Friday at 11:00.
I've had several representatives tell me that they are following the dialogue here and on Politicopia. Two have told me that the dialogue determined their vote. So, keep the cards and letters coming in.
UPDATE (later): Thanks, Tyler. 3 p.m.
Also, assuming the bill does pass committee and that it advances to the floor, it likely will be put on the Time Certain calendar for Thursday at 10:30.
UPDATE (1/31/07): Make that Friday at 11:00.
posted by steve u. at 1/29/2007
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29 Comments:
The notice had the time at 3:00 PM, not 2. Which is it?
Thank you for the heads up. It promises to be a good show. I do hope we get to see democracy in action rather than the political payback time for Parents for Choice in Education PAC's investment.
We have posted several concerns about vouchers on our website.
Vouchers and simple economics
Higher education grant programs as a justification for vouchers
The truth about vouchers
Going back to your point Steve about why some want things like more accountability with vouchers, there is one thing that is missed.
The parent taking the voucher does not pay for it, the REST of us do. Education is a fixed cost. If a person has 3 children, he or she does not pay 15 thousand dollars into the cost of their education alone, we share it. Thus, when one person forgoes his or her share of paying that shared cost and wants the rest of us to subsidize his or her personal choice, then it is US who pay for it.
That's almost the ultimate irony I suppose--those against vouchers are the ones who pay for the voucher supporters' kids. No wonder they're so adamant about wanting them. It's especially an irony to those who have no children or those who have children with terminal illnesses or who have lost a child--paying for those who have loads more "choice" than they do and yet complaining that they have a "lack" of choice and expecting the latter to pay for it.
Steve, is equal time being given some who oppose vouchers to make their comments or is it all limited to Parents for Choice and others?
OK Steve, here are just a FEW of my suggestions for "reforms" :
1)Let's drop the voucher subject for a little while. Let's look to OTHER ways to improve things first. Vouchers don't represent reform to me, but more polarization.
2)Work to get politics out of education--let's not make education so "political." It seems like nowadays that several groups want to be part of education policymaking. Let's focus on what we're supposed to be doing as teachers--teaching-- and leave much of the politics of MANY sides behind.
3)Establish more internship programs for secondary students where they can gain real-world experience. I have seen an increase in this, but just imagine if we had a LOT more.
4)Have schools develop a community involvement plan--to involve the community more and be more community oriented.
5)Use private sources to help supplement perceived needs for extra programs--use much places to help teach music programs, dance places to help teach dance classes, artists to teach art classes, and so on. You can see more of this throughout my list.
6)Continue funding parent-led tutoring programs in schools--a great idea that REALLY benefits schools and gets parents involved.
7)Take away some of the unnecessary testing. For example, the DRA in the lower grades, at least in my area, is this way. It often requires a whole week or two of precious instruction time to do and with little help to do so. It is a good test, but is not needed. I'm NOT saying take away all tests, but we certainly do not need any more than we do now, and should scale back a couple of them.
8)putting a reading specialist in each school with earmarked funds--I think this is a VERY good use of taxpayer money and provides a lot of assistance for the schools.
9)Give tax breaks to businesses who "adopt" a school. Imagine the resources this could provide and the intereaction between the private and public sector.
10)Have teachers and schools develop parent involvement plans and reward those who do so very successfully.
11)Have guest speakers from the community be willing to come in and talk with the children about their interest or vocation.
12)Somehow try to provide a gifted and talented instructor at each school who could satisy many "enrichment" needs.
13)work to establish low-cost communtiy tutoring programs for reading and math
14)increase mentoring programs-=-I read of one that met with great success in California.
15)utilize retiree populations to assist in schools
16)have physics teachers who teach in colleges contribute to the curriculum of physics in high schools. I have seen some professors complain about such, but very few who have tried to help it out.
17)Establish groups of scientists and engineers who could provide real-world examples and help supplement math and science curriculums (if the students saw a real scientist for example, it could help spark something in the student).
18)Establish other arrangements where business professionals and others could come into classrooms. For example, a lady I know actually establshed a business for a while that provided architects that helped establish programs in schools and give presentations.
19)Somehow provide grants and other things that provide community literacy programs.
20)Establish community education groups or committees in cities to help identify problems and solutions and to work together for such--sort of like a BIG school community group.
21)Give individual cities more of a say in local education issues without either trying to supplant them, undermine them, or increasing costs.
22)Give schools more flexiblity to establish after school programs, especially academically enrichment type.
23)Recognize and give tax breaks to businesses that are exceptionally involved in education such as Superior Water for filtering water in schools for free, the car dealers' Keys for Success program, and so on.
24)work to recognize outstanding teachers and students, rather than just emphasizing the negative aspects that is often done
25)better inform the public of GOOD things that go on in our public schools to
26)work to make neighborhood schools just that--neighobrhood schools where each person realizes he or she has a stake in things and gets involved. Such would really transform schools
27)Give schools more autonomy in how they teach the state curriculum and to establish other programs too.
28)expand the Junior Achievement program or use money professionals to help teach money management to kids (NOT some promotional thing that sometimes happens)
29)encourage teachers to contact parents in other ways BESIDES notes or planners A personal email or phone call goes a long way to establishing rapport and NOT JUST when the student is bad
30)LISTEN equally to all parties involved, not just to special interest groups (of all types). AND those with an agenda against public education should not be determining policy for such
31)Change our attitudes to one of working together and cooperation rather than competition and combativeness
32)Work to reduce federal government influence on Utah education (I wish it was gone entirely myself).
33) WORK to get more private grants into the classroom to help pay for materials, projects, and such. Maybe they could even be used for larger things like paying for a computer specialist, for example.
34)Get into the schools as legislators and others to make sure the money is being spent the way it should be. Put reparations on schools that are not and rewards for those who do use it widely. However, get in their as participants and helpers, not as watchdogs and overseers.
35)give scholarships to teachers who will promise to teach in low-income areas or who will be math and science teachers
36)tax incentives to small businesses who get involved in a school
37)CHANGE OUR ATTITUDES
All right, these are JUST A FEW remember. I have tried some of them myself with success. I think we ALL need to be involved, not fragmented as I see the cureent approach is. We CAN work together.
I promise more later. Let's consider other things besides what's being put forth now.
Rep. Hughes runs a good committee. I'm sure he'll allow equal time to all sides.
Vouchers are being fast tracked
Rep Urguhart is this whole thing a charade or are you serious about hearing both sides of this issue?
See Parents For Choice In Education PAC contributions at, https://ucrs.state.ut.us/ucrsppc/public.html?Target=pppcpubAccountSummary&PEID=5821&ElectionYear=2006, for a roll call of voucher champions.
Rank and file teacher,
THANKS! I'll look at your suggestions in more detail when I get some time tonight, but there are some winners there. I'm going to repost at Politicopia or somewhere more visible to help promote a more comprehensive dialogue.
Marshall,
C'mon, man. Am I serious about hearing from both sides? If you can show me other officials who are doing more to promote an open dialogue, I'm happy to learn and incorporate their strategies.
Happy Day!!! HB148 is through committee. Keep up the good work Steve.
Dear Rank and File teacher:
These are great suggestions and many of them are being implemented in my childrens' schools. My daughter has had college professors for calculus and physics. Student may also go to a local university for Biology labs. There is an active community business sharing program going on where parents and their associates set up field trips, public speakers and the like to supplement the curriculum with community experience. Our schools have technology specialists--some have multiple schools-- but these teachers have rich educational backgrounds, many with GT, ESL, technology and other endorsements and could be great resources for some of the ideas that you propose. Don't businesses already get tax breaks for their contributions to education? Many businesses have made contributions to schools to really make a difference. Yes, this should be encouraged and expanded. Just think--their support for public schools helps prepare excellent employees. Looking forward to hearing more of your ideas!
I enjoyed the constructive suggestons for improving public schools from oponents of vouchers. Implementing most of them would not be effected one way or the other by vouchers. Even talk about vouchers appears to be elevating the debate about how to improve public schools. This appears to me to go the heart of the arguement that real choice (made possible by vouchers) forces public schools to actually implement long overdue reforms. Voin Campbell.
I don't know what tomfoolery is going on in closed meetings but yesterday's House Education committee meeting was a fine example of citizen participation. Rep. Hughes did an excellent job of enabling the democratic process to shine. Please forward this anonymous gratitude to him.
I still hope vouchers die a slow and painful death.
Hi Steve,
As you know I'd prefer Tuition Tax Credit to finance School Choice in Utah but Vouchers are at least a step in the right direction. School choice is right because:
1. The responsibility for educating a child rests with the parents and school choice would give parents a choice to opt out of a "one size fits all" state system.
2. The parent who homeschools or puts their child(ren) into a private school pays for services that they don't receive. They end up paying for state education through property tax and income tax and then a second time for their school of choice. It is unethical to force a family to pay for something they don't receive.
3. Competition will improve both private and state schools. This is verifiable in the states and locales where school choice has been implimented.
4. School choice will help the awful state of things when the teachers must come "hat in hand" each year to the legislature. If there is competition, then the "market" will dictate the teacher's salary. I guarantee that the market will cut out a big part of education "fat" which never sees the inside of a classroom.
No one would want just one national airline. No one would want to go back to the phone monopoly. Why do we hold on so tenaciously to the "one size fits all" state schools? The Unions and vested interests are deathly afraid of competition. Do you wonder why? In a competitive market you must produce an acceptable product for a competitive price. This is SURELY not the case now.
There's good snark and bad snark. The 1:16 anonymous post that thanks Rep. Hughes for running a good committee and then states, "I still hope vouchers die a slow and painful death," is funny.
Rank and File Teacher -
You rock the party! These are some fantastic suggestions!! Really, why don't YOU run for the legislature? :-)
I count 10 of the last 17 posts as being opposed to school vouchers. So if this dialogue truly has determined the way some representatives will vote, I expect they should listen and vote 'nay.' But then again, are these representatives listening to the majority of residents who have said in recent polls that they don't want vouchers? Are they listening to the voters who did not elect one pro-voucher candidate despite the $500 million that voucher groups poured into those campaigns? Are they listening to the parents of the 97 percent of school children who attend public schools? Are they listening to the majority of taxpayers who have said they want more spent on public education and not tax cuts? Are they listening to the opinions of two esteemed former Supreme Court justices who say this bill is unconstitutional? To whom are they listening?
As for Tuesday's hearing, I was disturbed by the tone and tenor, especially when the chair called on armed guards to escort a well-meaning citizen out of the hearing for simply applauding. I ask, Reps. Urquhart and Hughes, was it really necessary to engage in such bullying?
Sorry, of course, that should be $500,000 not million.
congratulations, Rep. Urquhart, I guess you got what you wanted. But I hope you will now ask yourself, "At what cost comes victory."
The clapper was out of order and did nothing to help her voucher opposition crowd. The behavior was disrespectful to the process and she had, and took, the opportunity to state her opinion when it was appropriate. Let's be gracious, it isn't over yet.
Steve, now that it appears vouchers have passed, then I DO expect more than the token "no" answers that you gave to certain questions to others, meaning that since it will be mine and others' money paying for them, I expect my "choice" to have a say in where they go and how they are spent, since it is subsidizing a personal choice especially.
I have to wonder though, why we couldn't do them through the private sector or at the very least have ANOTHER account for the vouchers rather than have it come out of public education. It could easily be done. There's no reason, other than political, to have it come from other areas of education.
As someone who has wanted to have her own child for years, I hope that we could consider another voucher for others like myself and who have children that truly have NO choice (such as those having terminal illnesses)--maybe diverting some of the tax exemption savings that those with children who will get said vouchers.
I expect less regulations now upon the public schools so that we truly can have good competition.
This is how vouchers passed
This whole thing has been charade. Rep. Urquhart and the Republican leadership had no intention of listen to anyone including their own constituents on this issue.
If the chair of the House Education committee had extended the same graciousness Tuesday called for by anonymous 5:12, I would have expected him to simply remind the citizen to refrain from applause or any disruptions. Instead, for some reason, Rep. Hughes felt it necessary to summon two armed deputies and several "green-coat" security guards, who stood at the door as the woman was escorted out of the meeting. As far as I could tell, the woman was simply a private citizen whose only crime was a little unrestrained clapping. Also, was it really necessary for the deputies to embarrass the woman by standing over her until she stood up, quietly said "uh, OK" and peaceably left the room? I am concerned that the handling of this situation is demonstrative of an arrogance all too prevelant among some legislators and an attitude of utter disregard for the public they are responsible for representing.
Also, just to be clear: I would be voicing the same objection if the citizen had been a voucher supporter. I believe such actions in general are belittling and only serve to discourage public participation in the process.
Tanya,
The vouchers do come out of another fund. Income tax is earmarked for education and goes into the Education Fund. Sales tax, to the contrary, goes into the general fund and pays for all other areas of government. Vouchers come out of the general fund.
I could not agree more with your last sentence. I, too, am eager for public education to be less bureaucratic. Vouchers should help with that.
Marshall, though I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, I disagree with the conspiracy theory. The bill passed because 38 representatives voted for it. All 75 representatives took a lot of time to familiarize themselves with the issue and, then, voted to do what they thought would be best for public education.
UtahMom, you and I might have handled things differently were we chairing the meeting, but it is much more difficult to actually chair a meeting than to criticize someone who is doing it. Rep. Hughes is doing a great job of letting all sides participate and be heard. In any event, this was hardly a Tiananmen moment.
Steve,
Congratulations for this great victory in the state house! You deserve many kudos. I've long been a fan of yours and hope that you still have higher political ambitions. Washington needs more courageous conservatives like you.
To Utah Mom,
I was standing at the door where the lady was supposedly "escorted out." As i recall, she walked out with no one escorting her. Let's not make it sound worse than it was.
Was it an awkward moment for many of us at the meeting? yes, but Rep Hughes had made it very clear at the beginning that cheering and clapping were not acceptable.
And in response to your question "At what cost comes victory?" Well, according to the fiscal analyst, victory comes at about 1/3 the cost of educating a child in the public schools. I think that's a low price to pay for a "cadillac voucher program" as Rep Allen likes to call it.
Golly, who would keep paying three times as much for a VW bug when you can have a Caddy?
Dave,
I was sitting just a few rows behind the woman. I saw exactly what happened. It was humiliating, undeserving and just plain wrong.
As for the cost, I was referring not only to the financial pricetag of the bill but the toll it has taken on us as friends, neighbors and fellow citizens -- as demonstrated by this experience Tuesday.
Hello, Just a teacher here. I am still concerned about this and other legislation that tries to fix education. The biggest problem in education is the lack of respect for educators. It is easy to teach students who have respect for teachers, who desire a good education, and whose parents are supportive.
Vouchers have not, nor will they ever fix education. Good intentioned legislators will not be able to fix education because you’re whipping the wagon, not the horse. The thing that will fix education is for parents, the media, and the state legislation to quit bad-mouthing educators, and change the attitude of students and parents to one of support and respect. The more parents, the media, and others show disrespect to educators the more students blame their failures or lack of effort on teachers. There is a correlation there. Are there some poor public education teachers? Yes. Are there some great public educators? Yes. What is the greatest problem with teaching? The lack of support from parents, students, and others is a largest portion of the problem. It is easy to teach students who follow the rules and work hard.
Private schools never put up with the problems that public schools have too. Don’t get me wrong, I love the students and I try very hard to help the student gain the skills that they will need to be successful in the world after school, but I am very discouraged by the rhetoric and regulation thrust upon us by people who have no real idea of what it is to be in education today.
We are a great country because we try to educate everyone, let’s fix education for everyone including those who choose public education. Investment in education improves life for all.
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