Any Takers??
In the post below, I asked if anyone could theorize any possible scenario where public education does not come out ahead financially under the voucher bill I am running.
I'd specifically like to extend that invitation to the PTA, the education union, the State School Board and to any and all who have an interest in education issues.
If a financial issue exists, we can address it. If it doesn't really exist, we should stop saying it does. Fair enough?
The financial provisions will be the same as in last year's HB 340.
I'd specifically like to extend that invitation to the PTA, the education union, the State School Board and to any and all who have an interest in education issues.
If a financial issue exists, we can address it. If it doesn't really exist, we should stop saying it does. Fair enough?
The financial provisions will be the same as in last year's HB 340.
posted by steve u. at 1/19/2007
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32 Comments:
Steve,
I think I can paint the picture you are asking for but I would first like to address your comments regarding funding increases over the last few years. You are correct to say that Public Education funding has increased by nearly half a billion dollars over the last three years. It’s a good thing that it has because Public Education has taken in nearly 45,000 new students over that same period. By the time you add the new students into the system at current funding levels, the effective increase is cut in half. I perceive that many people in this state, do not clearly comprehend the magnitude of the Public Education funding crisis. I know you are fond of telling people that there are a lot of zeros behind those numbers. Good. There are a lot of kids out there. Don’t get me wrong, the increases have been greatly appreciated and put to very good use. They just aren’t as much as you would like to think.
Now, back to your request for ANY TAKERS. In order to see the possible problem, I would ask you to look not at the Public Education system but at the possible effect your bill could have on your local neighborhood school. Allow me, if you will, to use an analogy:
Imagine that you and your wife decided to take a short vacation to Disneyland. The four kids are getting restless and you think it would do all of you some good to get away and blow of some extra energy. You all pile into the minivan, drive to Anaheim, spend 3 nights in a nice hotel and get the Park-Hopper passes. Here are the expenses:
Gas = $100.00, Hotel = $450.00, Park-Hoppers = $960.00 and Food = $240.00. The total expenses are $1750.00 and there are 6 of you so the cost each is about $290.00.
Now, imagine that your loving wife decides that what SHE really needs is some time alone and sends YOU with the kids. Now the expenses are:
Gas = $100.00, Hotel = $450.00, Park-Hoppers = $800.00 and Food = $200.00. The total expenses are $1550.00 but now there are only 5 of you so the cost each is about $310.00.
The problem, of course is that you can’t just ask each of your children to chip in an extra 20 bucks. Your only choice is to cut expenses somewhere.
I think you, can see that taking 4 or 5 students out of a school of 600 does not significantly decrease the costs of operating that school. The energy costs are the same. You still need the same number of teachers etc… The only thing that has changed is the money coming in. I believe this issue of scaled economies is ultimately why the bill should include some kind of mitigation coefficient. I’m not sure how to put this into my analogy because it is not yet clear to me whether you intend for the district to get the entire WPU or the difference between the WPU and the voucher taken.
Finally, I would again urge you to find a way to get the mitigation money directly to the school. Sending it to the district would be like (from my analogy) sending it to the travel agency that planned your vacation. They might decide to use it to help you with your vacation OR, with so many other pressing matters, they might decide to use it to help a stranded tourist get home from Europe. Send the mitigation money to the school.
Dear Rep. Urquhart,
Thank you for your efforts to improve our students' education by increasing funding and working on creative attempts at reform, along with holding voucher critics accountable. The debate will make for better results for our schools.
In my school district, maintaining high standards at a sustainable rate is one of our highest priorities. My concern with your voucher version is that even with the 5 year mitigation, money that eventually would go to public ed is being diverted elsewhere. I believe there is a slippery slope mind set among public ed folks (myself included) where the five years in your bill could be easily amended next year to one year; or open the door to entire WPUs following the student away from public education.
I wonder, if HB224 on repealing in-state tuition for children of illegal aliens should pass, will children of illegal aliens be unable to access vouchers?
How much will the oversight cost to keep some parents from fudging on income levels?
I apologize for not answering your challenge directly with numbers, I don't know if I'll ever have a complete grasp on school (or any other type of) finance. I do understand the quote though, "where your treasure is, your heart will follow." If we invest in our local schools, they will thrive and attract more interest and participation from families. At least that theory is working in our district.
Hmmm...maybe let communities choose to participate in vouchers?
Thanks-
Tim,
Thank you for taking the time to lay out the detailed example. I first need to ask, have you been spying on me and my 4 kids and our trips to Disneyland in the minivan?
Your example gets at fixed costs and variable costs. In your example, there are some fixed costs (costs that don’t change whether 5 or 6 people go on the trip), like gas and the hotel. And, there are some variable costs (costs that do change with the number of people on the trip), like the admission tickets and food. Perfect. It is necessary to consider both fixed and variable costs, to understand how this bill works.
The average cost of a voucher will be less than the average variable cost per student. In other words, once a student leaves the public system, enough money is left to cover the fixed costs and even a bit of the variable costs. The public education system comes out ahead financial.
The bill, however, goes a step further. On top of that money, it gives the district extra money to cover any possibility that it will lose financially. So, in the example you gave, we’d have to factor in that someone would hand me $350 for traveling with one less person. Financially, we’d come out ahead. And, yes, my wife might be willing to do that, except that she fears I might not return with all four kids.
To your point about the school getting the money rather than the district, it’s not what we do. We give the districts money, where the elected board members distribute it. Sending the money directly to the school (to an unelected principle) is so different from what we do that it is not politically viable as part of this bill (in my opinion). But that’s not to say it couldn’t happen in the future.
As you note, Trust Lands money already is sent directly to school community councils. So the precedent is there. But if you followed the debate on HB 43 (2005) that I ran to lift the cap on money going to community councils, you are aware of the arguments that exist against sending too much money to community councils. And, you also would be aware that I kind of like your idea.
Anon,
The trust issue is real. Between the Legislature and the state school board, things have improved greatly with the arrival of Superintendent Harrington and her tremendous skills and candor. And I'm quite optimistic that together we'll craft good solutions to our tough issues.
As far as the education association goes, though, trust is low to non-existent, and I don't see it playing much of a role in anything other than elections. One example why that is. Last Thursday I was on KSL w/ the UEA president. After the cameras turned off, Deanie Wimmer and I were discussing how the public largely is not aware of the significant money the Legislature has poured into education the last few years. The Union president nodded and said that her organization was working hard to get out that word. Huh? Can anyone identify those efforts? I just see it spreading the disinformation that the Legislature is stealing from education.
I do not like the 5-year payment period. I think it is too generous. However, I want to go on record that it is a material part of the agreement that will allow this bill to pass. As long as I am in the Legislature I will strongly oppose any effort to shorten that period.
Dear Rep. Urquhart,
You are right--public education is getting the sweet end of this deal.
The bill is getting closer to a win for all stakeholders, yet it is still soft on accountability. Currently anyone can see the data of accountability for any public school. Asking tax payers to provide vouchers for private schools is like asking investors to invest without a complete annual report. I would think those who run private schools would want to provide more than one factor of accountability, as well. Wouldn't making this data public also be a great marketing tool?
Dear Rep. Urquhart,
You are right. Public education is being well compensated for the loss of a few students. That argument appears to be well covered. The fiscal report will be an interesting read.
This bill is getting closer to a win for all stakeholders, yet it is still soft on accountability. Currently anyone can see the data of accountability for any public school. Asking tax payers to provide vouchers for private schools is like asking investors to invest without a complete annual report. I would think those who run private schools would want to provide more than one factor of accountability. One would think that making such information public would be a great marketing tool. Of course, the tax payer and potential consumers need to compare apples to apples—we need the same data for private schools that we have for public schools.
Ann,
I'm glad you asked! To receive voucher payments, schools will have to administer a norm-referenced test that compares each student to other students on a nationwide basis. Then, without disclosing the performance of individual students, the results must be made available to the public. You ask, we deliver!
Is there money truly "left over" or do the funds leave totally with the student as usually is the case? Schools are funded on a per student basis so any student they lose means they lose those funds too.
Charge,
Good question. We spend about $5,000 per student per year. In this bill, when the student leaves, the district will continue to receive about $3,000 for THAT student for the next 5 years. Why? Politics.
With that provision in place, you'll notice that no one has taken me up on the invitation to describe how this bill would financially hurt public education.
My concern would be the students who end up coming back to the district schools mid-year. The district schools will be required to take the students, but the teacher numbers at the school will have been set.
For example, the district school has enrolled on Oct. 1, 95 third graders, down from 103 potential students. This would mean that they are 5 students away from being able to have 4 teachers, so they only get 3 teachers, each class will have 31 or 32 students. This is the reality of district schools and funding, most districts need to have a minimum of 25 students in a class before authorizing another teacher. By Christmas break 5 third grade students have returned from the private schools for whatever reasons. Now, there are 100 third grade students, but no district money left to hire another teacher, so we now have 33 or 34 students in each class. Add to the mix the fact that their was and is a teacher shortage, so one of those teachers may be an intern and that class could be smaller then the others.
You may think that this scenario does not happen, but it did happen to my child, and her class of third graders was 37 before the end of the year. This is in a "rich" area where vouchers would be at the $500 range. This happens because many parents think that the private schools are the best school and then they see that they have to provide transportation, tuition, books, lunch, uniforms, etc., and they decide that either they don't have the time or that the district schools are really just as good as the private schools. If this can happen in my "rich" town, it is more likely to happen in the "poor" parts of the state that you are trying to help. The difference is that in my area there are more parents who are able to volunteer in the school and the "poor" areas have more parents who are both working, some more then one job, just to make ends meet.
Representative Urquhart,
The financial impact is directly what Tim mentioned in the fixed costs. As Granite School District lost enrollment over the past decade, funds were lost directly out of the maintenance and operation budget due to the loss of the corresponding WPU's. Finally, the school board had to bite the bullet and close some schools because of the the enrollment declines. This has caused great consternation among the constituents that have lost their neighborhood schools.
Regardless, when a district loses a student then it loses the WPU. to say that there is so much money still left is not necessarily true. The money may only be in capital or other categorical funds that cannot be used on the day to day expenses. The largest of which is salaries and benefits of employees.
Mitigation money is a band aid attempt to cover the loss. The question becomes then is the state is proposing vouchers not for a financial savings but for other reasons.
Some were mentioned in pre-legislative events. One was competition to make public schools better. Do we give a voucher to people to get private security services because the police don't meet their needs? Do people really believe that there are teachers and schools out there that are not trying because of a lack of competition?
The euphemism of choice is used. Utah already has one of the most liberal choice laws in the nation. You can go to any school you want if there is the space.
Another question, where is the infrastructure to accept all of these students who supposedly need to flee from public schools?
I can't see where your bill would ban discrimination because of a disability. My son would not be allowed to attend some private schools because he has a physical disability that requires some accommodations.
Thanks for the opportunity to post and your willingness to listen.
One problem I see with funding is that right now, some public schools allow a higher number of students per teacher than a decent private school might. As you mentioned, the private school cannot stuff students into a classroom without getting negative feedback from parents. If only 5 or 6 students leave from a public school, funding goes down slightly, but the number of teachers remains the same. The school gets less money per teacher than before, and is less likely to hire new teachers. However, this loss of money from public schools is not a tragedy, because there should not be 30 elementary school students in a class to begin with. That is one reason why parents like me will benefit from the school choice/ school voucher program. If the money is being spent on my child's behalf, shouldn't we get the best use for it? Otherwise, the state pays AND I also pay for supplemental tutoring or counseling to counter the social and emotional problems that result from not getting needs met in the classroom.
Good points. To the issue of students moving around after the year starts, that is why we pay the tuition quarterly.
To the point on existing infrastructure, parents are demanding choice. More options are coming on-line all the time, including schools devoted to special needs children.
On the competition argument -- you don't here me making it (with one limited exception). I believe our schools are delivering a great product. Can it improve? Of course. Any big program can improve. Is it improving? Yes.
The area where I talk about competition is in the sense of public education being more willing to consider changes that the union might not like (including eliminating bureaucracy). In areas with sufficient school choice, parents have more power. Districts tend to listen more to parents (who demand more), instead of unions (that demand less).
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